[Icon-tech] Hello

Michael McDonald mmcdonald at aph.org
Thu Oct 22 06:57:48 MDT 2009 

Yeah, I need to post another version up there.  I'm not sure if I'll get it up this week, but if not I should be able to get it up next week sometime.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: icon-tech-bounces at mulcahy.ws [mailto:icon-tech-bounces at mulcahy.ws] On Behalf Of Nick Gawronski
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 8:53 AM
To: icon-tech at mulcahy.ws
Subject: Re: [Icon-tech] Hello

Hi, This list has been rather dead lately.  I have not heard any more on the
developer application or of the development kit that is going to allow us to
compile normal linux programs for the icon and braille plus.  I understand
we are still in the early stages of the 2.1 release but was just wondering
when more development tools are going to be released.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Esak" <john at valar.com>
To: "'Nick Gawronski'" <nick at nickgawronski.com>
Cc: "'Icon technical discussions.'" <icon-tech at mulcahy.ws>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: [Icon-tech] Hello


> Hi Nick,
> Yes, all good ideas.
> Thanks for the tips on the FTP. I think I'll try that in a few days...
>
> As to the list. No, the replies only go to the sender. I had to arrange to
> make my reply go to the list.
>
> I think I'll add this note to the list also because your tips on actually
> doing the FTP are good.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> John
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Nick Gawronski [mailto:nick at nickgawronski.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 11:28 PM
>> To: john at valar.com; Icon technical discussions.
>> Subject: Re: [Icon-tech] Hello
>>
>> Hi, Another thing that would be nice is if levelstar or aph
>> could provide
>> the ipkg version source code as if you go to handhelds.org
>> there are lots of
>> different versions and ipkg on the braille plus version
>> number does not
>> exist and from the looks of the latest version it is all in python.
>> Installation of the ftp client just involves downloading
>> lib4readline and
>> ftp from handhelds.org as .ipk files but really it took a lot
>> of searching
>> as I was not even really trying to install ftp just came
>> across it.  Having
>> the standard libraries on there would be nice as well as nmap
>> for port
>> scanning.  I could see the icon and braille plus as a very
>> useful network
>> trouble shooting device that could be taken to different
>> places and used to
>> fix or identify network problems.  Also about this list by
>> default do replys
>> go to the list or to the original sender only?  Perhaps this
>> setting could
>> be told about in the welcome email and on the list information page.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Esak" <john at valar.com>
>> To: "'Icon technical discussions.'" <icon-tech at mulcahy.ws>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 9:13 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Icon-tech] Hello
>>
>>
>> > Nick,
>> > My guess (and hope) is that the Icon /BP *would* turn on to
>> do a cron job.
>> > I may test that later on this weekend.
>> >
>> > And the only other thing I want to comment on other than
>> some of your very
>> > good ideas  in general is the one about arranging it so
>> that the clock
>> > settings would not be lost through a reboot.  Or, at best,
>> immediately
>> > recaptured from a time server if things are configured
>> properly.  That is
>> > one of the things that bothers me most.  I do find that I
>> am not rebooting
>> > as often with the latest version, but it is often enough to
>> hate having to
>> > reset the time, and a couple other settings that I wish
>> would persist
>> > through a reboot.
>> >
>> > To that end, I wonder if some of the defaults which are
>> Levelstar and
>> > APH's
>> > right to set could be overridden by user configurable files
>> as well.  For
>> > example, if I would like the unit to never time out and
>> shut off, I could
>> > have that be my choice in this user.cfg and immediately
>> after a reboot,the
>> > system would adapt to this file.  Oops, sorry, I am using
>> the word reboot,
>> > I
>> > mean reflash.
>> >
>> > However, there are some other  event oriented times that I
>> would like some
>> > more control as well. These times could also be effectively
>> controlled by
>> > a
>> > user configurable file out on the hard drive somewhere.
>> For example, when
>> > you plug the unit into the docking station, I would like to have it
>> > automatically reconnect to the Ethernet LAN.  Just a little
>> hassle to
>> > remember to hit Alt-Ctrl-N and reconnect it I know, but a
>> tiny hassle all
>> > the same.  If on the other hand, we could learn the command
>> line needed to
>> > do this, we could script out our own control and have it
>> execute along
>> > with
>> > any other of these sorts of things by running a particular
>> script.  I've
>> > spent some time looking for such things, but they generally aren't
>> > important
>> > enough for me to spend lots of time at this... And I
>> usually want to get
>> > right to whatever it is I'm going to get right to.  :-)
>> >
>> > On the whole, I just heartily applaude any suggestions that add more
>> > information to the console user.... And most of all...
>> Please, please,
>> > please put the man pages on the unit for the next release
>> possible.  I
>> > have
>> > spent my life on Unix systems and the Linux counterparts
>> are often not
>> > even
>> > close to what I can intuit.
>> >
>> > By the way your getting ftp onto the Icon/BP, good work.  I
>> actually tried
>> > doing that about a year and a half ago... But gaave up
>> pretty early on.  I
>> > would have kept it up, but someone along the way just told
>> me to use scp
>> > the
>> > ssh tie-in for ftp and it worked fine.  It was a devil of
>> time getting the
>> > right syntax for the scp though.  That took almost as long
>> as trying to
>> > compile an ftp that would work over on the Icon.  It does
>> actually work
>> > though if you write the scp command out in every one of its
>> 256 million
>> > permutations... One of them finally works. :-)
>> >
>> > Truly, I haven't had need of ftp since being able to turn
>> on file sharing.
>> > It is now a matter of just moving stuff from window to
>> window.  But, like
>> > you I am a command line oriented person, so I would love it
>> if either ftp
>> > was included, or scp was a little more demystified with a
>> man page.  The
>> > command line help you get is just enough to get you trying
>> things, and
>> > more
>> > than enough to get you running from the room screaming.  I
>> just tried it
>> > again right now to give you a simple command line that
>> works and you know
>> > I
>> > couldn't figure it out again.  Sheesh... Did I ever mention I hate
>> > computers...  :-)
>> >
>> > John Esak
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: icon-tech-bounces at mulcahy.ws
>> >> [mailto:icon-tech-bounces at mulcahy.ws] On Behalf Of Nick Gawronski
>> >> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:22 PM
>> >> To: icon-tech at mulcahy.ws
>> >> Subject: Re: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >>
>> >> Hi, I have been able to install some packages from
>> >> handhelds.org on my
>> >> braille plus using file explorer like lib4readline and the
>> >> command line ftp
>> >> client.  Not really an easy process as finding all of the
>> >> libraries took a
>> >> while but ftp now works fine on my braille plus at the
>> console.  Not
>> >> something I would say a beginner try but just to let people
>> >> know I was able
>> >> to do this.  I really think you should include this
>> >> application perfebably
>> >> the ssl version and the libncurses library for other console
>> >> applications
>> >> that use this library as well as the wordlists packages.
>> >> Perhaps having
>> >> ipkg have the ability to look at handhelds.org for updates
>> >> or to install
>> >> packages for the user would be a useful feature but then
>> >> again not all
>> >> packages will work from there so that might not be the best
>> >> idea.  Inclution
>> >> of more command line tools would be better I guess like a
>> >> fully functional
>> >> ssh client and server as well as some more games such as the
>> >> wonderful bsd
>> >> games package from debian.  Are there any files or
>> >> directories we should not
>> >> touch on our devices if we want them to still boot properly?
>> >> Perhaps the
>> >> beep or bell could cause the unit to vibrate as currently the
>> >> bell option
>> >> does nothing in the ftp command line program and the program
>> >> is rather out
>> >> dated at least the one I have installed now.  Is it always
>> >> needed to do a
>> >> reboot if it is a console application?  Having the main
>> >> interface portion
>> >> rerun itself after every installation would be quicker and
>> >> might not require
>> >> as long of a wait time and might not cause loss of the clock
>> >> settings.
>> >> Having an option to always turn on wireless or bluetooth and to
>> >> automatically set the clock from the time server if the time
>> >> zone is set
>> >> would be a very nice feature.  If we know how to create chron
>> >> jobs can we do
>> >> this for tasks we want run and if the unit is off will it
>> >> turn on to perform
>> >> the task?
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Ken Perry" <kperry at aph.org>
>> >> To: "Nick Gawronski" <nick at nickgawronski.com>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 6:33 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The old packages do not work because we have switched from
>> >> python 2.4 to 2.6
>> >> it just takes a recompiling of the packages or should to get
>> >> them to work.
>> >> There are many reasons for the change one simple one is
>> >> python 2.6 supports
>> >> more modules that are out there in the world.
>> >>
>> >> Ken
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Nick Gawronski [mailto:nick at nickgawronski.com]
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:50 PM
>> >> To: Ken Perry
>> >> Subject: Re: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >>
>> >> Hi, With the new betas I have noticed that there is no
>> >> documentation on why
>> >> the old add ons will not work or what has changed in the new
>> >> version of
>> >> linux or why the reason was for changing.  This information
>> >> would be nice so
>> >> that either developers or users who just develope their own
>> >> applications for
>> >> the device could know that things are changing before they
>> upgrade.  A
>> >> technical changes list would be a nice thing to include for
>> >> those of us who
>> >> are interested.  Will there ever be such a document written?
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Ken Perry" <kperry at aph.org>
>> >> To: "Nick Gawronski" <nick at nickgawronski.com>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:39 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> There are probably things that would make it so you cannot
>> >> reflash but I
>> >> couldn't say what it would be one way or another.  I can say
>> >> you can get it
>> >> into a state where you will have to get help and that would
>> >> probably mean
>> >> sending it in for repairs.  The easy answer on Linux anything
>> >> is possible
>> >> and if you start doing things more than just developing
>> >> applications with
>> >> Python for the Braille plus or Icon you need to make sure you
>> >> know what
>> >> you're doing before you do it.  I just personally messed up
>> >> my development
>> >> unit  and got it in a state it took a couple of us to get out
>> >> of.  With that
>> >> all said if your just developing applications you most likely
>> >> will be able
>> >> to reflash to get out of any problems.
>> >> Ken
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Nick Gawronski [mailto:nick at nickgawronski.com]
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:00 AM
>> >> To: Ken Perry
>> >> Subject: Re: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >>
>> >> Hi, Is there any method that would make even a reflash
>> >> impossible on the
>> >> icon or braille plus if I do any type of file changes to the
>> >> flash disk like
>> >> recompiling the kernel or other operations?  I just don't
>> >> want to make my
>> >> unit unreflashible if I change something just to see how it
>> >> would work I
>> >> want a way to restore it back to factory settings if
>> >> possible.  Is there a
>> >> way to down grade to an earlier version or make a rescue
>> >> image to rescue the
>> >> system if something should break?  I am not trying to break
>> >> it on purpose
>> >> just want to prepair if something goes wrong.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Ken Perry" <kperry at aph.org>
>> >> To: "Nick Gawronski" <nick at nickgawronski.com>; "Icon
>> >> technical discussions."
>> >> <icon-tech at mulcahy.ws>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 6:37 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You could get the arm gcc package I am sure someone has
>> >> compiled it out
>> >> there but I have never went to look.  It is not on the
>> >> Braille plus or Icon
>> >> by default.
>> >> As for the menus you could look in /usr/share/icon/startmenu
>> >> and examine the
>> >> xml files to see how the menu system is laid out.  Note
>> >> though if you change
>> >> things drastically you can cause problems that only a
>> reset will fix.
>> >> Ken
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: icon-tech-bounces at mulcahy.ws
>> >> [mailto:icon-tech-bounces at mulcahy.ws] On
>> >> Behalf Of Nick Gawronski
>> >> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 6:36 PM
>> >> To: john at valar.com; Icon technical discussions.
>> >> Subject: Re: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >>
>> >> Hi, How do you modify the menus on the icon or braille plus?
>> >> Also, is there
>> >> ways to do any type of C compilation on the braille plus?  I
>> >> can't find gcc
>> >> but that does not mean that nothing can be done either on the
>> >> device itself
>> >> or on the pc.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "John Esak" <john at valar.com>
>> >> To: "'Icon technical discussions.'" <icon-tech at mulcahy.ws>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:45 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >I am a long time programmer. 35 years  plus now.  I reviewed
>> >> Python for a
>> >> > magazine back when it first started appearing... but I
>> >> never worked in it.
>> >> > When I got my Icon, I picked up the book Learning Python which is
>> >> > available
>> >> > on bookshare.org and it came very easily to me.  I do not
>> >> think this would
>> >> > be true if you are not a programmer with a good bit of
>> >> background in at
>> >> > least shell scripting, if not C.   BASIC is an excellent
>> >> starting point
>> >> > for
>> >> > anything though.  I learned Dartmouth BASIC back in about
>> >> 1973 I think...
>> >> > and it was just great  compared to the lower level machine
>> >> language stuff
>> >> > that was the only other optins back then.  After a short
>> >> while C made its
>> >> > way out through the Unix heads at Bell labs and Berkely and
>> >> elsewhere, and
>> >> > that is almost a shame... because while it is an infinitely
>> >> more powerful
>> >> > language and the basis for just about everything we use
>> >> today... it is not
>> >> > nearly as good as BASIC was for teaching someone the tenets of
>> >> > programming.
>> >> > So, while Python is really a stupendous language and one I
>> >> am starting to
>> >> > like writing in more than anything else, it will be hard
>> >> for you to make
>> >> > some of the leaps it will ask of you.  However, if you
>> start at the
>> >> > beginning of this book, and have an environment where you
>> >> can try each
>> >> > thing
>> >> > as it is brought up, there is no reason why you can't learn
>> >> it.  I just
>> >> > want
>> >> > to warn you not to get discouraged.   Some of the concepts
>> >> are  difficult
>> >> > to
>> >> > grasp.  For example, I program in C and used to do it
>> all day long.
>> >> > Still,
>> >> > the object oriented parts of Pyton and C++ often illude me
>> >> for days and
>> >> > weeks.  I'm forever needing to go through aha moments
>> when I finally
>> >> > understand what it is that is being taught.  You can read
>> >> it 15 times and
>> >> > not get it, then, the 16th time some bell rings somewhere and you
>> >> > understand
>> >> > what is going on.  Even so, it is not a simple matter of
>> >> just beginning to
>> >> > write code now that you understand some part of it.  There
>> >> is a learning
>> >> > curve to all of it, and I don't think there is anyone who
>> >> can bypass that
>> >> > curve.  It simply takes time, and that's all there is to
>> >> it.  I liken it
>> >> > to
>> >> > a musician perhaps who can play the guitar really well and
>> >> has for 40
>> >> > years.
>> >> > He has talent and decides to take up the violin .  No
>> >> matter how much
>> >> > talent
>> >> > he has and how much desire and how much understanding he
>> has of the
>> >> > concepts, he still needs to put in the actual long bit of
>> >> time trying and
>> >> > re-trying and learning the new instrument.  the worse
>> part of this
>> >> > situation
>> >> > is that he does not have the same youthful desire to push
>> >> on that he did
>> >> > when he was 20... so it might take him another 40 years to
>> >> also be able to
>> >> > play the violin.   Ha,  <smile> and here I'm telling you
>> not to get
>> >> > discouraged.  Sorry.  Anyway, get the book "Learning Pyton" from
>> >> > bookshare.
>> >> > It is your best beginning and introduction I think.
>> >> >
>> >> > John Esak
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: icon-tech-bounces at mulcahy.ws
>> >> >> [mailto:icon-tech-bounces at mulcahy.ws] On Behalf Of
>> David Poehlman
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:06 AM
>> >> >> To: Terrell Jones; Icon technical discussions.
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Icon-tech] Hello
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi t, long time no see.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Aug 11, 2009, at 4:54 AM, Terrell Jones wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hello,
>> >> >> My name is Terrell Jones. I'm interested in developing
>> applications
>> >> >> for the Braille +. I have
>> >> >> dabbled in the BASIC Programming language. However, I have never
>> >> >> worked with python, so
>> >> >> programming is new to me. If anyone could point me to some good
>> >> >> resources, that would be great.
>> >> >> Thanks for your help,
>> >> >> Terrell
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >> > http://www.mulcahy.ws/mailman/listinfo/icon-tech
>> >> >
>> >>
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>

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